most major navies phased out their battleships. Minor navies still used them, but they were no match for a ship of the wall. (source?)


there was a breeding station?

Grayson Space Navy[]

  • Benjamin the Great-class: The first Grayson-designed and built class of ships of the wall. With the advent of pod-laying superdreadnoughts, these ships were retained as "command superdreadnoughts". Only three were made of this class - GNS Benjamin the Great - The flagship of Admiral Hamish Alexander during his command of Eighth Fleet
  • Honor Harrington-class:
    • GNS Honor Harrington
    • GNS Isaiah Mackenzie
    • GNS Edward Esterhaus
    • GNS George Hanson *
    • GNS Hector Ferelli *
    • GNS Abraham Honeywell *
    • GNS Isaac Santorini *
    • GNS Barbara Bancroft *
    • GNS Jason Mueller *
    • GNS Howard MacLenmore *
    • GNS Jasper Johansen *
    • GNS Andrew Massengil *
    • GNS Mason Luttrell *
    • GNS Seneca Gilmore
  • Steadholder Denevski-class: An unseen class of warship, presumably superdreadnaught class, which had their fusion drives canabilized to rush the production of the Harrington-class. This slowed their final construction until after the GNS Honor Harrington. Presumably a pre-pod type of warship, indicating that probably few were made in favour of the more powerful Harrington's.
  • Honor Harrington-B-class: Possibly the Grayson variant of the Manticoran Medusa-B-class, though it might be a different design.

LAC Carriers - Covington-class

    • GNS Covington
    • GNS Austin Grayson
    • GNS Judah
    • GNS Glory
    • GNS Saul
    • GNS David


  • Raoul Courvosier-class: Grayson's first indigenous battlecruiser design, named after the senior Manticoran officer at the Battle of First Yeltsin.
    • GNS Madrigal
    • GNS Raoul Courvosier
    • GNS Bernard Yanakov - Presumably destroyed. (or recommissioned with another name)
  • Raoul Courvosier II-class: An improved version of the Courvosier-class with pod-laying capabilities and advanced systems. As the Battle Cruiser was carrying missile pods, it was decided to greatly reduce the typical broadside missile tubes common on battle cruisers, in favour of more, and heavier, energy mounts for close-in fighting. Named for important or famous Grayson's.
    • GNS Bernard Yanakov *
    • GNS Janice Yountz *
    • GNS Alice Manwairing *
    • GNS Michael Riaan *
    • GNS Randolph Candless *

Heavy Cruisers - Jason Alvarez-class: The first class of heavy cruisers built by Grayson. Named in honour of the Manticoran destroyer captain who fought in the Battle of First Yeltsin.

    • GNS Jason Alvarez

Light Cruisers

  • Austin Grayson-class: A small and obsolete class of three light cruisers that predated Grayson's alliance with Manticore.
    • GNS Austin Grayson
    • GNS Covington
    • GNS Glory
  • Nathan-class: New light cruisers built after the Grayson-Masada war - GNS Nathan

Other Cruisers - GNS Francis Mueller Destroyers - Ararat-class: A small and obsolete class of four destroyers that predated Grayson's alliance with Manticore. All four ships were lost during the Grayson-Masada war.

    • GNS Ararat
    • GNS David
    • GNS Saul
    • GNS Judah

Those ships marked with a (*) were mentioned in a post by David Weber as forming part of Honor Harrington's fleet during the Second Battle of Marsh, see [1]

Cherwell Convention[]

Not all signatories of the Convention support equipment clause (most notably Solarians and Silesians), but Manticoran and Havenite navies enforced it strictly since its very inception.


Masada (as of The Honor of the Queen, currently under Manticoran occupation)
Form of Government Theocracy
Official language Standard English
Home Planet Masada
Capital City of God
Head of State Chief Elder Thomas Simonds
Head of Government Chief Elder Thomas Simonds
Senior Military Commander Sword of the Faithful Matthew Simonds
Executive Branch Council of Elders
Legislative Branch unknown
Military Navy of the Faithful of Masada, Masadan Army,
Founded circa 1360 PD (3463 AD)
Currency unknown

The Masadans are former inhabitants of the planet Grayson who were exiled after a bitter 14 Terran-year Civil War which ravaged the planet. The forefathers of the Masadans, who called themselves the "Faithful", opposed the Church of Humanity Unchained's revised doctrine on technology that contrasted with Rev. Austin Grayson's original dictum that technology was evil, and sought to take control of Grayson's government. Their attempted coup, led by Steadholder Bancroft, caused the deaths of Protector John Mayhew II and fifty-three Moderate Steadholders and their heirs, but they failed to kill John's son and heir Benjamin. Benjamin escaped to another Steading and led the resistance against the Faithful.

Steadholder Bancroft's wife Barbara revealed the existence of a Faithful doomsday weapon to the Moderates, leading to a final offensive and a treaty between the Moderates and the Faithful. Barbara Bancroft is revered in Grayson as a heroine and is known as the Mother of Grayson, but to Masadans she became "The Harlot of Satan", the ultimate symbol of evil and the responsible of the "Second Fall of Man". Several chemical-powered (non-impeller) sublight ships were loaded with the surviving Faithful and departed for the nearby Endicott System, where they founded the colony of Masada. Ironically, Masada is a more hospitable world than Grayson, but Masadans vowed to reconquer Grayson from the hands of the "Apostate".

the Manticoran occupation to declare martial law ?


In State Security Naval Forces (great article by the way), some months are preceded by a c. Is that a typo or a calendar variation I'm not familiar with? I'm serious as I haven't read all the books but do know there are varying nomenclatures to time and date. CIC 13:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, problem is I only suppose that "c" is for "circa". So when I know exact year, and the monthly date is approximation I put "c" before month name. However I'm not the first who months preced by a "c", check for more examples at wikipedia. Btw I have to check in books about dates typing ("c").--dotz 05:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Good Job on the article. --Farragut79 22:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


You and SaganamiFan are now Administrators. Congratulations. --Farragut79 06:10, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Fail not in this charge at your peril.--dotz 07:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia links[]

Hi, Dotz

I just removed some old Wikipedia links from the articles you saved on this talk page, so that they don't appear on the wanted articles special page any more. -- SaganamiFan 14:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Captain of the List - Drakensis[]

Captain of the List is the offical name of the rank in Manticoran terms - as well as Captain (SG); couple Captain JG/Captain SG looks similar to Lieutenant SG/JG; showed in Ranks as equal names now (behind the scenes - "CSG" term was probably implemented to the series later)

if you take a look at Honor's thoughts at the end of On Basilisk Station she considers it the path to flag rank, rather than a flag rank herself - right (that's why I said it wasn't explained well, there are other books also), I'll try to find some counter-quotations

Captains have commanded squadrons [...] - right, HH3 and HH6 HH commands aren't comparable - first one was just a temporary escort, not a "regular" squadron, second one - a tiny TG - was even more than squadron in terms of fleet organization; as CO of TG 1037 HH should have her own staff; Cardoness got flag captain duties than; Squadron command is flag post anyway.

but they are not considered flag officers - a question of assesment and further research (mine at least, any help is welcome)

This seems to be a parallel to the Royal Navy's Post-Captains from Hornblower era - Hornblower references are fine, but they are just parallels, not exact RMN rules.--dotz 20:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Discussion was a bit not exact - we have not flag rank definition in Honorverse. Anyway - Captains (SG) probably had no own flag (not mentioned in Jayne's)--dotz 18:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
It depends on what the Captian is commanding, A Captian could be commanding something that dose not require a flag officer like a Destroyer squadron. A CO of a destroyer squadron will be given the tital of commador but only hold the rank of captain. As to TG 1037 that was more than likely administrative designation because the Q-ships were going to operate indipendatly of each other. As to HH escort force to Grayson a flag officer was not requiered becase it was temporary and all the captains held different ranks Harrington Captian(SG) Truman Commander McKeon Lt Commander Alveres Lt Commander. Also if worse came to worse Courseviour could become OIC of HH squadron.--John964 17:39, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Glad to be here[]

You are "Dotz Holiday" on Wikipedia, right? Hope to see you back there again, too :) --Piotrus 16:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Kingdom of Poland 1916 - positive (after a few years, when I improve Polish article, a play as tough as creating a short book), Honorverse - inserting links here only (or really necessary corrections).--dotz 20:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: Welcome[]

Hey, thanks for the "Welcome aboard". I'm still trying to get to know how things are done in this wiki. I hope I can contribute some good work soon.--Bravomike 17:29, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

So I'm not the only one musing about the Andies German ;) I've created some demo templates, what do you think? I have to admit, it was not my idea, we use templates like this at the MA for some time, but I clearly remember the work introducing them in a wiki with 9,000+ articles, and I don't want to have this again, so we should think about it now.--Bravomike 21:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

HI! I forgot to log in before I added something to the Honor Harrington article. I composed the article in Word and block-copied from the clipboard. some of it looks strange and I don't know how to make it look like the rest of the text. It's a lot easier to add links with the new editor.--Adriennedillon 04:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


Hey Dotz, I've finally answered the questions you left me on my talk page. --ThomastheCat 22:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Canon Issues[]

From everything I've read, the Jayne's Intelligence Reviews are Canon. But how is the Honorverse Wiki the rest of the Saganami Island Tactical Simulator books like Ship Book 2: The Silesian Confederacy. Just hoping for some clarification.--Sfire 16:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Honorverse:Honor International[]

Hi, Dotz! As you can see, I have created a little project to collect the international titles of the Honorverse novels. Maybe you could find some time to add the Polish titles and adequate translations?

Thank you and best regards. -- SaganamiFan (Talk) 18:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


Hey Dotz, thanks for getting in on the discussion. The treecat list can be found somewhere in the history of the Treecat article, but I removed it after individual articles for all 'cats had been created, so the Category:Treecats is essentially the same list now... -- SaganamiFan (Talk) 18:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I've now noticed your comment at SF's talk, and came here to respond. As near as I can tell, SF is right about the various articles adding up to the list. It was originally put together for the treecat article, was removed to its own article by someone who thought treecat too long, despite my protests. There were short notes with each cat, too short I thought for individual articles, and in any case minor characters in fictional series didn't seem to me to be suited to WP's remit. Looking at one or two here, I still think they're too short for good encyclopedia style, even on a wiki devoted to HH.
Your comment about articles being best arranged as pointer collections is one I cannot agree with. On behalf of Our Gentle Reader, we should not force them to chase around following links in order to understand the subject at hand. Obviously, this is likely to be a matter of some dispute -- "...my 'enough in the instant article to make sense to the Reader' is your 'just a collection of pointers' is his 'have to do both and so unacceptable...'.
Finally, SF hasn't, except in passing addressed the issue of awkward tense as a result of adopting what seems clearly to me to be an ill advised policy. Too tidy to be compatible with fluency in article writing. Your opinion is...? wikipedia ww (got myself logged off somehow) 15:25, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
Have to ready everything carefully first.--dotz 22:00, September 5, 2009 (UTC)


Hey Dotz,

Ja będę w Krakowie na następne pięć miesięcy. :-)

Just wanted to tell you! -- SaganamiFan (Talk) 18:38, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with that piece?[]

Well, the grammar was worthy of a three-year-old, and "maked"? That's not even a word.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 23:04, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

This works for me:
Honor Harrington generally didn't participate in the main military activities of the First Havenite-Manticoran War, so the presence of Hamish Alexander made it easier to describe course of the war.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 17:30, November 1, 2009 (UTC)


Hi there

First of all, thx for the tip but now to the matter. Been adding some to characters or missing characters as you no doubt noticed when I started to wonder why there is no template for characters to display more basic information such as Date of birth, death, service record and such the same way battles or ship classes gets template for a small box to add this in.

Currently trying to remember how to get some If's in there so I can add things like noble Title, service records and such while making it so they dont appear for non-noble and non-military characters...a major headache since Im waay out of shape when it comes to anything like HTML and such.

Anyway, just a bit curious what you think of it? Character template for basic data on them that is. Kazehito 15:33, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

True, so far I havent thought on more then some basic content on it and some functions like "if" so it could be used for anything from Military to civilians without having 1 for each but without having civies having "service records" visible LOL. Been far to busy having fun to see if I could make such a template work, so some input on if it should be done or not as well as content is a very good idea. Kazehito 16:05, November 2, 2009 (UTC)


Congrats back! It's a lot of stubs, but I figure it's easier to build on them then to build new articles from scratch... -- SaganamiFan 18:42, November 26, 2009 (UTC)


Saganami-C - 355 Agamemnon - 600 big-Nike - 750 Medusa-B - 1025

tons crew ktons/crew

roland 188 62 3.03

sag-c 488 355 1.37

nike 2500 750 3.33

med-b 9000 1025 8.78

Genevieve Chin was not KIA from Battle of Manticore apparently, she was part of the 17 SDs that managed to escape.


A while ago Mr. Weber posted on the Bar his entry in his Tech Bible for the Maya Sector (I'll try and dig it up). The short version is that the Maya Sector was wealthy enough to bribe OFS and Solarian supercorperations, as well as launching a PR campaign in the League, into giving significant concessions of self governance and a certain degree of "hands off" of the local economy in exchange for peacefully becoming a protectorate.

The following is a partial citation from the Honorverse tech bible. I do not promise that it won't undergo revision as the sector develops as a player in the Haven Quadrant.

The planet of Smoking Frog was named Talaloc by its original discoverers, and that remains the official planet name as far as the Solarian League is concerned. However, it was renamed Smoking Frog by its inhabitants about 50 T-years after its initial colonization because it has an exceptionally active "belt of fire." Eruptions are frequent, especially along the chain of very large volcanic islands stretching through the approximate center of the planet's largest ocean, and the name struck the inhabitants as wryly appropriate when nine major volcanoes erupted in the space of less than one local year.

The bulk of the system population lives on Smoking Frog, its single moon (Vorva), or the orbital habitats around it, with another 2.3 million living and working in the Quetzalcoatl Belt's platforms and habitats, and approximately 1.1 million scattered around other orbital habitats. The primary is considerably cooler than Sol, and the planet is somewhat further out than Old Terra, but Smoking Frog's energetic vulcanism contributes to a higher concentration of greenhouse gases and the average planetary temperature is within a few degrees of Old Terra's.

System notes and history:

The Maya System has several interesting astrographic features. The most striking of them is the Hunapu/Xbalanque dual gas giant system. Essentially, this consists of twin planets (Hunapu and Xbalanque) of near identical mass (both of them a bit smaller than Jupiter), orbiting a common center of mass. To make things even more interesting, the subsystem boasts seven additional moons which also orbit the same common center of mass. The sheer mass concentrated in the Hunapu/Xbalanque orbital shell has created an enormous asteroid belt -- the Quetzalcoatl Belt -- which was one of the major attractions for the original colonizing expedition. The Quetzalcoatl Belt is a rich natural resource, but didn't produce the "boom economy" the original colonists anticipated.

Maya was originally surveyed (and the original planetary names were assigned) in 1107 PD, but the system wasn't colonized until 1500. By that time, it was evident that the Haven Quadrant (initially colonized 190 years earlier) was going to be a major magnet for settlement, and since the Manticoran Wormhole Junction wouldn't be discovered for another 85 years, it seemed reasonable to assume that habitable planets between the Solarian League's then existing borders and Haven would find themselves squarely in the path of a new wave of colonization. Maya lay directly in the center of the corridor the demographers were projecting would attract that additional colonization, but it was far enough out from the League's borders to be affordable by colony expeditions with relatively modest means. The attraction of the Quetzalcoatl Belt and the industrial potential it represented was another factor in directing attention to the system.

The original colonists came from several sources. The expedition was organized from the beginning as both a commercial enterprise and a politically motivated trek to greener pastures, with the organizers advertising in multiple star systems for the types of settlers they wanted. As a result, Maya had a degree of multi-ethnicity from the very beginning which was uncommon among such relatively small colonization efforts. At the same time, however, the new colony had attracted a remarkably homogenous social cross-section. What the planners were after -- and, by and large, got -- was a solid core of well qualified professionals from primarily middle-class and lower-class backgrounds who were dissatisfied with the type of oligarchical social stratification which had already become unfortunately common in the Shell of the Solarian League. They had powerful and similar, if not identical, concepts of how representational government should be organized and they believed in the capitalist system, but they had an ingrained and innate distaste for the sort of cutthroat exploitation they saw about them on their original homeworlds.

Given the industrial potential of Maya, and the anticipated influx of additional colonists and investment, they believed they would be able to establish an affluent, high tech world which would become an outlying member of the Haven Quadrant as its inner borders expanded back towards the League.

For the first half century or so, things went well for the new colony, proceeding pretty much according to the original game plan. Maya was too far from the Haven System itself to be more than a transit point for most of the wave of colonists being attracted to the Quadrant, but a steady trickle of through traffic paused in Maya, liked what it saw, and stayed. Natural increase and the influx of new settlers brought a steady growth in population on the planet Talaloc (renamed "Smoking Frog" by its new inhabitants in 1551 PD, which was also known as "The Pumice Year" because of its volcanic activity). Then, however, in 1585, disaster struck in the form of the discovery of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. Suddenly, it was possible to get to the Haven Quadrant via Manticore and Trevor's Star from the very heart of the League in little more than a couple of weeks, as opposed to the months-long hyper-space haul along the route through Maya's astrographic neighborhood.

The implications of the new routing weren't immediately apparent to the majority of Smoking Frog's citizens, but their local government recognized the writing on the wall very quickly. To be honest, although the Manticoran Wormhole Junction was a devastating blow to the colony's original development plan, it wasn't actively catastrophic to the colony itself. By the time it happened, Smoking Frog had its feet well under it, with a population of almost 100 million, and the investment which had grown out of the Haven Quadrant traffic before the Junction's discovery had provided the system with a solid industrial base. The economy's revenue stream took a heavy hit from the abrupt shift in shipping patterns, but the system was never in danger of the sort of internal collapse which had plagued so many cryo-ship colony efforts.

By 1630, Maya had adjusted quite nicely and had resumed a steady, comfortable, if not spectacular, rate of growth. In 1625, the Maya System planted its first daughter colony in the Sprague System. Additional independent colonies left over from the Havenite traffic days were already in place in Murray and Robert, although neither of them had fared as well as Maya had. Between them, the steadily growing colony in Sprague and the inhabitants of Murray and Robert provided Maya with a small but growing local network of interstellar commerce, and that network continued to expand as Maya began trading with the Republic of Erewhon, as well.

By 1700, however, it became evident to the Mayans that the steady expansion of the Solarian League -- and, especially, the operations of the Office of Frontier Security -- were eventually going to wash over them. The 200 years since their initial settlement hadn't been enough to change the Mayans' minds about the oligarchical system their ancestors had fled, and they had very few illusions about the sordid reality behind the high flown rhetoric of Frontier Security and its transstellar partners.

The fact that Maya and Sprague -- which were now trading regularly not only with Erewhon but with Edwin, Isaac, Poul, Randall, and even Trevor's Star -- were substantially more affluent than the vast majority of Verge star systems was only going to make them more attractive to Frontier Security. Clearly, something had to be done.

In 1709, a conference was hosted in Shuttlesport, the capital of the Maya system. Its organizers chose their guest list carefully, and there was remarkably little publicity or public notice of any sort in light of the fundamental changes which emerged from it.

The Shuttlesport Conference put together a comprehensive strategy designed to turn Maya and its main trading partners into a political and economic unit. The Conference's delegates didn't expect to be able to turn themselves into a multi-system star nation in their own right -- or not, at least, to be able to do it quickly enough to give them the degree of "legitimacy" which would inspire something as greedy as OFS to keep its hands off of them. What they did do was to formulate a common economic strategy designed to bootstrap their less affluent members. At the same time, they deliberately fostered a sense of the "Maya Sector" as a cultural, economic, and -- to some extent, at least -- political unit. And, having carefully analyzed the reality behind the Solarian League's façade of representative government, the Conference delegates (and their successors) began very cautiously establishing direct contact with members of the bureaucracies which truly ran the League. At the same time, Maya began actively courting investment by Solarian transstellars, offering attractive opportunities . . . but putting into place local protections and controls at the same time.

The plan worked. By the time the ever outward-lapping OFS tide started arriving in their vicinity around the middle of the 18th century, the Maya Sector was ready. Instead of being involuntarily ingested by Frontier Security, the Sector actively petitioned for Solarian "protection" in 1772, and the influence it had spent the last 60-odd T-years obtaining on Old Earth through judicious investment (i.e., bribery) of bureaucrats and recruitment of major transstellar sponsors meant that its petition was granted very much on its own terms.

It was a straightforward bargain. Basically, it was a deal with two devils. Maya would accept a Frontier Security administration, but unlike a typical Verge protectorate, the citizens of the Maya Sector would retain local self-government and any sector governor (not a commissioner) appointed by OFS would have to be confirmed (accepted) by a majority of the Sector's voters. It was understood that Frontier Security would levy the usual "administrative fees" on the Mayan economy, since those "administrative fees" represented a substantial chunk of League's revenue stream in light of the constitutional prohibition of any form of direct taxation by the central government. At the same time, however, Maya had built an unusually comfortable relationship with the League's transstellars, which provided the "second devil" of their bargain. There was substantial local investment and ownership in most of those transstellars; local Solarian managers were often Mayan-born, and even those who had been transferred into Maya by their employers tended to become more Mayan than Solarian and settle comfortably into the local population; and the corporate masters of those transstellars had discovered that Maya was actually considerably more profitable for them, over the long run, than the sort of "slash-and-burn" exploitation which was the norm in the Verge. They recognized that they had a good thing going for them in Maya and used their own contacts with the League bureaucracy to protect their own perceived interests in the Sector. As a consequence, the Sector wielded an enormous amount of influence back on Old Earth for a collection of a mere eight Verge star systems.

Despite all of those protections, however, the Maya Sector was well aware that its degree of local autonomy existed on sufferance. A steady Mayan public relations effort on Old Terra helped to bolster a public perception of the Maya Sector as one of the jewels in Frontier Security's crown, which would make it more difficult for OFS to unilaterally abrogate the agreement which had granted that local autonomy, but no one who had watched Solarian bureaucrats in action could feel any huge degree of confidence in them. Moreover, despite the Sector's "interest" with members of the bureaucracy, and despite the protection of its transstellar "partners," the "administrative fees" being charged against the Sector's economy grew steadily as a percentage of its combined Gross System Products.

By 1911, 200 years after the Shuttlesport Conference, the Maya Sector, while well aware of how fortunate it had been, was beginning to chafe under the increasingly heavy hand of Frontier Security's "administrative fees." Moreover, OFS' exploitation of other Verge systems had grown progressively uglier over that same century and a half, and despite its own protected position, Maya didn't like what it was seeing. In fact, in many ways, the Maya Sector had become a breeding ground for subversively-minded people who didn't much care for their nominal Solarian overlords.

The significance of 1911 lay in the fact that it was in that year that Oravil Barregos was first nominated as Frontier Security's governor for the Maya Sector. He was confirmed by a narrow margin in the 1912 referendum on his appointment. In 1917, he was reconfirmed for a second five-year term, with 68% of the vote. In 1920, despite strenuous efforts by OFS to campaign against its own official "nominee," he won reconfirmation by a majority of 76%.


I've noticed that you have made several edits of late with the edit summary "KIS". Since the edits were basically deletions, I take it that KIS means Keep It Simple. For the two articles I had edited, the deletions were, in my view, damaging, removing material that the Average Reader (not an expert on the Honorverse) might not know, and which might prove useful. I have left a note at Madras System Detachment discusses this in greater detail.

I don't think that, as a policy, this approach will result in a better Honorverse Encyclopedia as it removes context many Readers will find useful in making sense of some of the odd corners Weber has produced for us.

Please don't hesitate to comment on my talk page on this if you'd like. Wikipedia ww 04:09, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Pending clarification of the above, I've tried to refrain from edits which might draw a KIS deletion/reversion. But I find that edits I've made for purely English use reasons are also being reverted. I concede my tendency to typos (and thanks for those you've found and fixed) but my English is quite good and most generally don't require amendment. The substitutions / reversions have not always been reasonable alternative English. I sense I'm missing something. Please enlighten me. Wikipedia ww 20:05, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
Examples of KIS reversions / changes /deletion should be easy to find in your edit history. You have often labeled the edit summary as "KIS". I've queried one or two of those, defending the information I'd put in as useful (to the Average reader) if not to Honorverse experts, and in those instances in which you responded you usually said something like that was covered in some other article, so not needed here.
That's certainly true if the standard for editing here is the barest, sparest articles not wasting Wikia storage space if it can be helped. I think that standard is wrong-headed for fundamental reasons. We are not writing for each other, but rather for a wide audience, many of whom will not be Honorverse experts. indeed, I think it fair to assume many will be casual click-by types who haven't read any of the stories. For all but the expert Honorverse reader, context will be important. The events described, and their interconnections with other events are not immediately obvious. I myself as a reader of the books and stories for many years, did not see the Mesan Alignment approaching. Nor, if DW's Author's Note at the beginning of the last Talbot Quadrant novel (Harvest of Shame?) explains, neither did he, it being forced on him by changes Eric Flint introduced with Crown of Slaves. That the first novels weren't incompatible with the plot as it's developing is pretty extraordinary. Heinlein wasn't this consistent with his Future History, though Niven's Known Space Universe has mostly been. It

s an impressive feat, and one that will be incomprehensible to all but expert readers using the editing standard for what is or is not surplusage and so deletable by a KIS principle is adhered to. Hence my continued difference from that policy.

But this second issue is distinct. At OFS, most recently, there is an example. I had edited a line or two to something like "assigned to Commissioners' and Governors' headquarters: which you changed by substituting "office' for "headquarters". As you left it, it is bad English. First, office has two meanings. When not capitalized (as you left it), it means a room (or perhaps suite of same) assigned in some official and in which that official usually works and sees visitors. The Oval Office is somewhat such a place, and so is Nr 10 Downing Street. ON the other hand, when capitalized, the meaning shifts a bit to a bureaucratic organizational connection, less connected with a particular official. Again, the Oval Office and Nr 10 Downing Street are examples, and more apt to this second meaning. Second, office is singular whatever its capitalization, and therefore does not fit, as a matter of English patterns, while headquarters evades this issue since it is both plural and singular. Third, office conveys, only when capitalized, a connection with a hierarchical organization, and is somewhat ambiguous even then. Headquarters, however, always has this organizational connotation and is often not tied particularly to a specific building or suite of rooms. On these grounds it was a better choice, and your edit unfortunate. Hence my query about what was meant.
I make my share of typos and I thank you for catching more than a few. My fingers have been recalcitrant, I'm afraid. But they have never caused trouble at th4 level of English usage, and I do rather better there, modulo the occasional multi-edit which leaves awkward debris from prior,a nd abandoned, approaches to a sentence or paragraph. Those are clearly my fault, not my fingers'. But overall, I write fluent English prose and, like any fluent user of a language, make few errors of syntax. Wikipedia ww 04:18, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Dates for Battle of Carson[]

Dotz, my date comes from SI1 pg 11 PB and I quote;"And that, Ladies and Gentelmen is the reason you are here today, where every senior class of midshipmen has stood on the eve of its midshpmens cruise for the last two hundred forty-three T-years."

1920 PD - 243 = 1677 PD minus one more year for the action to take place and you get 1676.

Dotz I just had thought why not use both dates. here is my reasoning. If we take the date in JIR as true and also my date. The battle takes place in 1672 PD. The RMN Lords wanting to inspire and challenge the middies, hold up Saginamie's sacrafice as an example and starts the 'Last View' a few years later in 1677 PD.John964 15:48, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

You know, I've been lurking around various Wikias for years, making small edits and additions here and there, but it was your message that convinced me to finally create a Wikia account. And seeing as that I am currently in the process of reading HH books for the first time, I may just be tempted to do my best to contribute where I can to this wikia. Thanks!


Cześć Dotz,

Is there a timeline of which stories happen when? The chart on your profile has helped a little, but I'd like something a little bit more concrete. What can I say, I like reading things chronologically XD.

Dzięki Fizzmaister 12:11, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Check out this URL: http://www.davidweber.net/files/downloads/honorverseTimeline3.jpg. Personally, I think you'll get a little lost if you read it in chronological order. The short stories can be completely ignored, and everything you need to know about what happens in the saganami and torch series is in the main series books when you need it. In fact, I think that torch contained spoilers in my opinion: if it hadn't been such a good read, I'd regret having picked it up. Emteeoh 13:35, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
The biggest chart I know is on wikipedia:Honorverse. --dotz 14:50, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks everyone Fizzmaister 04:51, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Talk Pages of Deleted Pages[]

When pages are deleted because the title is misspelled (ie HMS Tisphone and HMS Petrocles) should the associated Talk page be deleted as well? Or moved to the correct spelling? Or redirected? Or something else? 21:56, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

An article with correct name has its own talk page. If there is no important data on misspelled talk page, it can be deleted.--dotz 22:18, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
In that case, Talk:HMS Petrocles and Talk:HMS Tisphone could be deleted since the only entry for each was the entry saying the page was misspelled. 03:21, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

Recent edit summary[]

You gave "(simple template (like in other artilces), firstnames in text)" as an edit summary for Battle of Grendelsbane. I am not certain what you mean. Do you mean that only the family names of commanding officers should be displayed when using Template:Battle and the given name is used in the article? Is this a standard/consensus or editing convention that I missed? If so please point it out to me so that I can follow it in the future. Thank you. 11:10, July 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think I can answer that one: you guessed correctly, this is one of the unwritten rules that developed over time, mainly to keep the commanders in the battle box from occupying more than one line. That is mainly a problem when you write out ranks like 'Commodore' or 'Rear Admiral' and have a long name for the person itself, but over time it became common on all battle articles to write the name short in the box and in full length in the order of battle. -- SaganamiFan 12:02, July 28, 2011 (UTC)
Thx Sag. I answered simply on anon user's page. --dotz 12:05, July 28, 2011 (UTC)


I have a login and I was logged in when I wrote that reply. I don't know why it showed my IP instead of my login. I manually changed it and I appeared on my end, after Publishing it, to have taken my User name.

Thank you for the message and I hope it is straight now.

Gregoblv 00:58, May 19, 2012 (UTC)



Yes, Image:SL logo (small).png is fanon.--Samanda (talk) 00:08, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dotz.  I just edited the Call to Duty summary for grammar, spelling, and clarity, but there were places where I just didn't know what the original writer had meant to say.  Someone who actually knows the plots being summarized might want to review it to check to see if the result is correct, esp. about the final sentences in the entry in Book 3. 17:10, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

It said to leave a message on your talk page.[]

Greetings, I, am the great mighty and powerful Lord of the Stars! greatest pirate.... where I am from. This is a interesting looking place, I don't know exactly where I am but it looks like a interesting place. Honorverse aye? sounds like a honorable place. :) --. User:Lord of the STARS AKA Best pirate of the Galaxy! 19:12, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

Spam Article[]

An article titled 8444 was added to the site 6 days ago. It's a spam article and needs to be deleted, but SaganamiFan hasn't been on the site in a few months.  Could you possibly deal with it, please? - DarkScribe (talk) 20:08, August 25, 2019 (UTC)

New Star Kingdom Books[]

According to the news section of davidweber.net, Weber and Jane Lindskold have signed a deal to continue the story of Stephanie Harrington as of yesterday, September 13th. I'd like to add it to the News section of the front page, but I've never done that before and I'm concerned about screwing something up. How exactly do I do it? - DarkScribe (talk) 20:17, September 14, 2019 (UTC)