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A & B[]
There were Mars A and Mars B classes, diferences were described in SI1.--dotz 20:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- tonnage diferences - there were A and B, no source fot 600k given, so there is no possible explanation (HH7 - CIC estimations?). Jayne's: A 451.750, B 477.250.--dotz 20:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- If I am not mistaken it is mentioned somewhere in HH8 when Honor muses over the Mars-class. Chapter 45 or 46 I think. I also think only one of these figures can be right, there is nothing to suggest the Mars-class underwent a radical redesign like the Edward Saganami did.--Janusi 21:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- The critical quote seems to be: "'The rest are obviously warships—probably heavy cruisers and battle-cruisers. Given the size of the Mars-class ships, it's even harder than usual to distinguish between them at any kind of range, so CIC is uncertain how the ratio breaks down". Then Honor agrees, followed by the quote "At six hundred k-tons, a Mars-class was almost as big and tough as many of their pre-war battlecruisers" (HH8) vs Jayne's.
- If I am not mistaken it is mentioned somewhere in HH8 when Honor muses over the Mars-class. Chapter 45 or 46 I think. I also think only one of these figures can be right, there is nothing to suggest the Mars-class underwent a radical redesign like the Edward Saganami did.--Janusi 21:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Any other quotations about 500k, eg. from HH7 or SI1?
- it seems it is inconsistency,
- my private guess - StateSec Marses could be refitted on Tepes' way
- another private guess - there is nominal (official) and operational (real) tonnage feature for real-world warship (such explanation never appeared in the Honorverse however).
- Any other quotations about 500k, eg. from HH7 or SI1?
- --dotz 21:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, the guess that Statesec refitted its Marses so much that they gained more than 100k tons in mass doesn't really make sense. Tepes was outfitted a different way but they had to take out a few things to make room. How do you fit an extra 100k tons into the same hull? The question that comes to my mind is, what is the average tonnage of a battlecruiser?--Janusi 09:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, its 20% of tonnage (however tonnage is matter of weight, volume is quite derivative) - so eg. golden missiles could weight so much :). Official BC brackets you can fin eg. at HH11 glossary (500,000–1,200,000 tons), however it was prewar value very likely. It was moved up with large heavy cruisers as well as with big battlecruisers, that reached BBs brackets with their 2,5 MT (BB bracket was 2,000,000-4,000,000 tons).--dotz 09:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, the guess that Statesec refitted its Marses so much that they gained more than 100k tons in mass doesn't really make sense. Tepes was outfitted a different way but they had to take out a few things to make room. How do you fit an extra 100k tons into the same hull? The question that comes to my mind is, what is the average tonnage of a battlecruiser?--Janusi 09:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- --dotz 21:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- All that doubts cen be explained with variations present in Mars-C and Mars-D classes. --dotz 11:55, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
- --pce: 11:07, November 4, 2014 (UTC) I'm wondering if the quoted smaller tonnage for the Mars D means that theHavenite ships didn't get included in what has come to be called the "Great resizing". If so, the Mars -D ship would actually be moderately bigger than a Saganami-C, instead of within two meters in all three dimensions. To account for the additional volume and weight, the Mars -D would only have to gain another 8% meters in average diameter and a similar amount of added length. Playing with Excel, I came up with a size of 660x80x73 vs 610x74x62 for a Saganami-C. That would also account for the fact that Manticoran parts and missiles are known to be smaller than their Havenite counterparts and why the Solarian League admirals would have so much difficulty believing that a Saganami C or Roland class destroyer could launch the two stage Mark 16 missile from tubes.
Jayne's[]
...should prevail with two separate sets of data for A and B. Novel's info is additional.--dotz 22:52, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
Grayson?[]
Why is the Mars-class listed among the Grayson Starship Classes? It's a Havenite design. -- SaganamiFan 02:37, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- Some of the units that belonged to Honor's Elysian Space Navy when she escaped from Cerebrus were Mars-class units and those units were incorporated into the GSN in the Protector's Own. It's a situation similar to modern world navies. If you check wikipedia, most articles about classes of ships that are in use with more than one national navy list every navy that uses them as their operators. -- DarkScribe 02:53, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- Thats the reason why I did it. --Farragut79 03:13, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- We had that discussion somewhere before... I just don't see this as practical for the Honorverse, because this wiki concentrates almost entirely on two or three navies that are at war with each other and all have a common practice of taking enemy ships as prices. Thus, you likely have ships of many enemy classes in service with the Alliance and the Peeps, and at that point we would have to put each class of which at least one vessel is known to have been taken a price into the enemy template, which makes the whole classification by templates and categories pointless.
- Again, I'm not talking about cases where RMN and GSN use the same design and give it different names, or where it is clearly stated that a design is sold to several costumers, but calling a Havenite ship class a Grayson ship class because the Graysons (or actually, the Manties) basically stole a few of them doesn't make much sense to me. We should mention the fact that some of the vessels where in enemy service in the class article, though. -- SaganamiFan 03:38, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- It still does account for the fact that there was Mars-class vessels in the service of GSN, or maybe we could call the GSN Mars a different name? Similar to the Manticore's Gift-class? Also, the Mars class was listed in the Grayson Ship Classes box anyways. --Farragut79 15:28, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- In the House of Steel "Jaynes" entry (pg 491), the four captured ships are listed as "Proselyte" class, with the 477 ton weight range intact. with the smaller "Mars" dimensions which I am tending to doubt, until David W. or someone in BuNine clarifies the actual size for the class, that is. The ships are officially retired because they have the Goshawk-Three fusion plants, and the cost to bring them back into service would presumably be higher than a new-build GSN-Burleson ( Grayson Equivalent of a Saganami-C).
Known Ships vs Known ships of the class[]
I honestly don't really care which one is used, but I just stuck with one that was prevalent on many changes to make the class information uniform. So which one is it?--Farragut79 15:30, August 31, 2010 (UTC)